Any recommendations internal speaker wire?

[GM]

To twist, or not to twist ??

It may be " centuries proven " as you suggest, but it is not always the best way to execute it, if one simply listens.

I have recently been able to listen to wires, twisted and untwisted, and ....in certain applications, ....untwisted sounds better to me .

For amp to driver runs, I have recently A-Bed this, and on my system, polarities not touching clearly sounds better. In fact, ANYONE would plainly hear this on MY system.

Although the decades old EE books denote what AWG works for so many feet, and I appreciate you showing this to us all..... I suggest that may be invalid ...not adequate.

I would hope this Forum is " big" enough to allow some diversity of thought.

What I HEAR, always trumps any decades-old written theory. Reality trumps theory.

Greets!

Personal opinion [hearsay] is completely irrelevant to what is proven over time to be technically best [overall] WRT performance of the intended app, so are neither invalid nor inadequate. One need only look at all things electrical in our lives for much more than ample proof of its underlying physics presented in those 'old EE books'.

It's also well proven that we all hear the same, yet not so much, so a universal baseline reference of physically proven theories is required to even begin determining what others opinions are worth and to what degree.

I've no doubt you may hear some difference due to various tweaks, differing design methodologies, though one thing's for sure is that your amp, system will measure more, higher, various distortions than when designed/built to well proven theory if just 'anyone' can hear them simply because we perceive sound primarily by its harmonic structure and since we like 'rich' tasting foods, drinks, feeling clothes, seeing brilliant colors, it seems a foregone conclusion that we want our sound 'rich' to a greater or lesser extent also, which in sound reproduction is technically composed of various distortions to the signal and well proven enough to not be open for debate or be dismissed out of hand as you're wont to do seemingly every chance you get.

Your still being able to post here is proof enough that this, and any other forum I post on [and only will post on], is more than 'big' enough to not just allow some diversity, but encourage it; just only that when questioning, contesting, or outright damning, the validity of well proven science or others personal experience[s] that they must come with a preponderance of physical, measurable proof, not hearsay, no matter how high a personal opinion one has for theirs or others experience[s].

What one likes, hears never trumps well proven theory, just merely conveys to others what sounds 'right' to them in their app, so will likely never be exactly like anyone else's, hence anecdotal for consideration at best as to whether one wants to experiment, which are relatively few at the DIY SOTA level and even then most effort/budget is spent on improving the speakers, the well proven weakest link by a wide margin since the beginning of sound system reproduction and will continue to be it for the foreseeable future except possibly by using mass quantities of DSP only currently available with a supercomputer AFAIK and even then not sure if it could ever correct it enough to match an entry level HIFI amp much less best, a current SOTA amp.

The reality of the underlying physics only trumps theory when the requisite measurements proves otherwise, then the theory is modified to suit reality, not personal opinions, hearsay.

GM

[LowOhms]

Lovely post GM !!

But please keep in mind, I preceeded my comments on twisting with these words " in CERTAIN applications ". The word "certain", I underlined.

I went on to discuss UN twisted as being beneficial the end-to-end High Voltage windings of a power transformer, used for tube amps, and amp-to-driver wiring.

I also cited two other manufacturers, who had similarly noticed this, when A-Bing.

My question I posed directly to you, as I recall, is " If un-twisted sounds better, in a specific application YOU have listened to, and by a clear and wide margin, HOW would YOU build the circuit in those spots.?"

I have not negated the EE reasoning for twisting wires at all. Wires are twisted in MANY places in my builds, but not automatically for all places, if it sounds worse to me, or others who may hear it in my system.

How would YOU proceed, if you had to live with that choice in certain applications??

Have fun. cool subject. Appreciated your post, and your presence. Thanks.


Jeff Medwin

[rogerh113]

One of my favourite Monty Python sketches is where the patron in the restaurant mentions a speck of dirt on a fork. The waiter (Cleese) goes absolutely wild, apologizes profusely, and finally commits hari kiri with the 'dirty'' fork. The punch line is when the patron says something like 'lucky I didn't tell him about the dirty knife'...

Perhaps things are a bit out of control. I was hoping for suggestions about my wiring concept, not open warfare....

regards -- Roger

[GM]

Perhaps things are a bit out of control. I was hoping for suggestions about my wiring concept, not open warfare....

Just another day on the boards.......... Anyway, some good info got posted, but to answer your Q; yes, you can size wire by distance between components whether they're XO parts on a board or amp, speakers, etc..

Back when I started designing electrical distribution gear, we often had to provide [multiple] huge, hard wired solenoid relay panels to turn off/on/sequence up to hundreds of motors in a plant or in just one section of it if automotive or similar, so the amount of high quality stranded wire required demanded that we size wire based on load, not what the entire panel [or section of] load was, so while it might start out at 8 ga it could be 24 ga at the return point.

I don't recall checking how much we typically used on those, but one year saw an end-of-year Southwire invoice for 10 mil ft. of 14 ga [our standard control wiring] and we were a relatively tiny plant by assembly plant standards.

GM

[rogerh113]

Invest a few minutes - perhaps it helps put the relative importance of things into perspective.....

Monty Python- Dirty Fork - YouTube

regards -- Roger

[GM]

Link doesn't work, so assume this one [need to use the 'insert video' feature]:



GM

[mah]

In terms of perspective, BS is BS no matter how you look at it!

[LowOhms]

One of my favourite Monty Python sketches is where the patron in the restaurant mentions a speck of dirt on a fork. The waiter (Cleese) goes absolutely wild, apologizes profusely, and finally commits hari kiri with the 'dirty'' fork. The punch line is when the patron says something like 'lucky I didn't tell him about the dirty knife'...

Perhaps things are a bit out of control. I was hoping for suggestions about my wiring concept, not open warfare....

regards -- Roger

Hi Roger,

Well , I gave you very speciific and detailed instructions on internal wire in this thread, and it was my very best information, and precisely what I do for myself. i didn't hold back.

I am having a HUGE task of position optimizing my 825 enclosures, in the corners of my listening room ( 13 by 18 by 9 feet ), over the next two days. Each 825 has about 400 pounds of patio concrete stepping stones on top, 16 pounds each, and I gotta take em ALL on and off, for each distance change, to position each 825 enclosure by ear, incrementally, in the room.

They are coupling to the rear wall, and maybe the side walls, too much, too close......... as it stands / sounds to me today. I knew "this day", ( in the A7 set up ), would come.

Its now. Ugh !!


Jeff

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Old Guy,

So, you built something in 1963. In 1961 I helped my DAD build a Dyna Kit PAS-2 and ST-70, but it wasn't until 1982, when I got to design and build my first DHT amp, P-P-P 6B4Gs, on SIX chassis, 400 pounds.

YOU STATED ABOVE :

" You've talked about $20,000 amps here, which doesn't sound like a budget basis, and you repeat the claims of the builders. Guess what, Jeff. Those builders have an agenda- selling twenty thousand dollar amps."


YES, the 20K amps ARE the best out there, in more than one person's opinion. We should be able to single them out up here, without ruffling feathers, for people to KNOW OF, and if you have the money, they are an excellent long-term solution.

What you FAILED to acknowledge is that I clearly suggested to ALL.....the Jelasi and Marzio amp building article, gave the URL. I also offered improvements, and offered to help ANY interested DIYer gratis, to build something for himself.

It would just be the cost of parts, to own and use ( IMHO, IME ) a world-class sounding amplifier on ALTECS.

So, there are two sides to this coin, Old Guy.

Regards,


Jeff

[Old Guy]

Hi Roger,




So, there are two sides to this coin, Old Guy.

Regards,


Jeff

Yep, and one is badly tarnished.

[LowOhms]

Yep, and one is badly tarnished.

Yes, that is correct ( above )..

But the question still remains open...WHICH side of the coin is badly tarnished?

All one has to do is A-B the two wire choices, and self-determine.

Listeners will now be able to find-out for themselves, ( not what you or I think and write ), but rather - what sounds best to their ear, and who might be, to use your specific word-choice, the piker.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


AMPS:

Sorry , disagree . The two folks that design and build $20,000 audio amps, do not have "an agenda to build a $20K amp" as you state, but rather, build the best sounding amp they can devise. The circuit, topology, parts choices, execution choices, believe me, are their primary and over-riding goal. Their over-riding focus is having the amp perform, really perform, better than anything else available, in music playback.

The final cost is, what it is !! Maybe its four times the cost of the parts internal...whatever !! We should be happy these products are made, so we can HEAR them, maybe even own them, and.... we are all given a choice.

Most of us, can't - or won't - spend $20K for the best sounding amp available today. Some of us will have an open mind however, and take the time and make an effort, to actually LISTEN to one or both of them ( Spectral DMA-200, out of the Bay Area, or the Serious Stereo 2A3 amp, out of Montana ) . I have.

On this Forum this past month, perhaps in this thread, I have referred people to a published DIY audio amplifier article from Italy, that will allow them to APPROACH one of these two designs, and at a fraction of the cost. Will the DIY effort equal either of these two commercial amps? No Way. Get real !!

But, IN MY HONEST OPINION, ( not a fact Old Guy ) it will way outperform any other choice of an amp, they can use with an ALTEC speaker. Its a very simple circuit. so there is LESS to go wrong, its saving grace.

No negative feedback circuit .....how wonderful.

Just TWO stages - half of a 12AX7, or maybe half of a 12BZ7, directly coupled to the grid of a JJ 2A3-40. I offered to assist others, and for now, that offer stands.

I am not trying to post " against you " Old Guy. I would want to pay you respect. This post just offers my interpretation, my "opinions" ( if that word would please some ), summarizing the many posts I have done up here recently.

We should ALL be concerned with what works BEST on ALTECs.

Enjoy your system and music!! Best to you !!


Jeff Medwin .... Low Ohms.